Why does Jehovah choose certain people to rule with him in heaven?

by iWant2Learn in

in other words, what good works have the 144000 done to be secured a place in heaven?

i am told they have already been chosen.

does that mean that jehovah also knows our future?

Juan Viejo2

I asked that very question to Lester Dugan, a lifetime second generation JW who was, at that time, our "Circuit Servant" in Southern California (mid 1950s). I was in my early teens at the time and the whole concept of the 144,000 was completely unintelligible to me.

In those days, there were more of "the Remnant" still around (at least until the more recent second generation of "anointed remnant of specially chosen ones.") We had maybe 8 or 10 members who "partook" of the emblems each year in our KH. Brother Dugan's mother lived in our town and went to our Kingdom Hall, so we saw him about twice a year even when he was not our Circuit Servant. When he visited he often would gather the children and teenagers around and allow them to ask him questions about the Bible.

One Sunday afternoon, just before the one hour "public talk" was about to start, Brother Dugan set up a section near the front of the seating area and then asked us if we had any questions. There were often some very good ones like:

"What color skin did Adam and Even have?"

"How did God keep the salt water of the oceans from mixing with the fresh water of the lakes from mixing during the flood?"

and ... (my favorite)

"How do the 144,000 know that they are of the remnant and destined to go to heaven when they die?"

It's been many years, but Brother Dugan answered that question with a lot of caveats. If I remember most of what he said, it went something like this (not a direct quote) :

"Do you know what instinct is like? How some people have certain talents that seem natural to them, but unachievable for others? How very few people can become artists or musicians almost without trying, while others can try and take lessons but never succeed at those skills? How some people just know where they are and never get lost - while you or I can not find our way home without a map or a guide? Those are ways that the 'anointed' know that they are members of the 'Little Flock.' If you do not know instinctively that you are one of the chosen, then you are not part of that privileged group."

As the group broke up, the younger ones still had no clue what he was talking about. But I thought at the time that I grasped the concept that he was trying to convey without giving away any "secrets."

But a few years later, while out in door-to-door service with an elderly sister who also claimed to be "anointed," I mentioned in passing what Brother Dugan had told us during that meeting. I'll never forget her response:

"It's not like that at all. I don't know where he came up with that explanation, but it's nothing like that. But I can't tell you how I know and you would not understand anyway. So just focus your mind on the preaching work and what the New Earth will be like. You will never know what being 'chosen' is like. It's best if you don't ask those kinds of questions."

I had one other opportunity to converse directly with an older brother who claimed to be a member of the 144K. His response to me was to simply ignore my question and tell me to "focus on other things." If I remember correctly, I was embarrassed and somewhat angry with his response. I know that the whole thing was a total mystery to my father. My mother wouldn't talk about it at all. I'm sure they were as baffled as I was about that belief.

Lester Martin Dugan
Obituary Condolences

DUGAN, LESTER MARTIN Age 96, passed away Wed., 10/6/04, in Hemet, California. Lester was born January 28, 1908 in Beaver Co., Oklahoma. He was a dedicated full time minister of Jehovah's Witnesses for more than 70 years! Lester is survived by his devoted wife, Teressa Dugan. His loving son, Jim W. Dugan and his wife, Florence of San Felipe, Mexico. His 8 step-children: Robert Sola, Terri Murphy, Erin Burks, Cathy McInnis, Shaughan Murphy, Charles Murphy, Patricia Murphy, Anne Calles and their children. He has two grand daughters: Kathleen Parsons of Ramona, CA and Elaine Taber of Yucca valley, CA. He has 4 great grandchildren and 2 great-great grandchildren. A memorial service will be held at the Mira Loma Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Mira Loma, CA on Monday, October 25, 2004 at 7PM.

Published in Press-Enterprise on Oct. 14, 2004

JV

16

I was Kidnapped!

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

__________________i was kidnapped today ____________.

a rainy day in ft. worth is bad news day for terry.

my elective transportation is 100% bicycle and i can get through just about all weather except rain.

Juan Viejo2

Terry,

When I lived in Fort Worth, Hulen Mall was the place to go to meet "friendly" ladies. And I don't mean that in a bad way. There was another mall up north of Fort Worth that was similar in many ways. I think the single (and some not so single) ladies would go there to troll for "one nighters."

During a period when I was split with my wife (we lived over by McCart and Alta Mesa), I'd go over to Hulen Mall to get some dinner, just wander around, and maybe go to a movie. The ladies were always very friendly - smiling and saying "hi" to me as I just wandered around with a cup of coffee in my hand window shopping. If I sat down on one of the benches and just "people watched" for a bit, I was sure to be approached for a friendly conversation that often included, "so are you married?" If I answered "separated" or "almost divorced" - that was like being "better than single." I was sure to get invited to go dancing or out for an "adult beverage." Of course, those situations usually happened when I was just hiding out from the extreme heat or cold outside - depending on the season.

I worked at Tandy Center in downtown Fort Worth (hey, Terry! what do they call that now?) and would often go down to one of the bars that looked out at the ice skating rink. I was usually only there for a few minutes by myself or with a male co-worker before being invited to join a group of ladies at their table.

Yes, Fort Worth was unlike anything I had experienced in the years I lived in California where women would blow a whistle and call security if you approached them. Texas women could be very aggressive and loved it when you'd just go up and say hello. And they cut right to the chase; I had a librarian ask me out and I was still wearing my wedding ring. The nice thing about them was that they were very comfortable dealing with rejection. All I had to say was, "sorry I'm waiting for my wife (or someone)" and they'd back off or say, "maybe next time?"

I guess there are worst things that could happen to you than being kidnapped by a lady Texan. Oh - those were the days...

JV

158

Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS!!

by JT in

jw
friends

yes, i too have wondered how an assembly that is held in a fully paid for assembly hall, with no food service, could possibly have $10,000 in expenses.

i suppose the bethel speakers have transportation expenses - maybe $1000 or so.

as for rent on the assembly hall, well you have already paid for it once, why pay again?

Juan Viejo2

The real question we should all be asking is: Who, specifically, is benefitting from all the money the Watchtower brings in every year. Who gets the dividends? If there are plusses every year, how and what are they used for? Where are all those dollars being moved? Where does the "drain" flush the money left over? What are the objectives of the profits from invested money? Downpayments on new properties and buildings? If so, are those properties and buildings in themselves not profits? Are all buildings and properties (without exception) being used only for Christian functions, training, printing, and expenses?

JV

158

Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS!!

by JT in

jw
friends

yes, i too have wondered how an assembly that is held in a fully paid for assembly hall, with no food service, could possibly have $10,000 in expenses.

i suppose the bethel speakers have transportation expenses - maybe $1000 or so.

as for rent on the assembly hall, well you have already paid for it once, why pay again?

Juan Viejo2

The absolute hypocrisy of the Watchtower is apparent when they put out magazine articles, Governing Body videos, and local pleas for contributions indicating that one of the major expenses to the Society is the cost of conventions being held worldwide. They treat conventions as contributing toward their "expenses" - when in reality they are income producing "cash cows." And they have been for years.

We all imagined the costs associated with the Society's "International Conventions" (1950, 1953, 1958, 1960, 1963, etc.) that were held in massive stadiums and ballparks. When you think that 250,000 attended the last Sunday meeting in New York in 1958 (spread across two major league baseball stadiums and a fair sized trailer camp) - just imagine if every attendee contributed just $1.00. That's a quarter million dollars for just one day! And that convention and the one in 1953 were both eight-day conventions with contribution boxes spread around everywhere and income producing food service tents in all three locations as well (using mostly contributed supplies and groceries). I have no idea how much "International" conventions actually produced in cash and other donations, but I heard from sources connected with the early 1960 conventions that "all expenses were paid well before the weekend sessions began." What is not usually mentioned is that many local businesses and suppliers also donated funds toward the conventions because they knew their business would benefit greatly (restaurants, gas stations, hotels, etc.) by having such huge crowds flood into New York during weeks when no baseball games were scheduled.

I was fortunate to get to know a former Bethelite that served in New York HQ during the 1950s who was a helper to the NWT translation committee. Among other things he shared with me was the fact that the Watchtower never failed to make huge amounts of money from the summer conventions. Only a few, mostly in southern Europe, failed to make huge profits. In some cases, stadium rents were reduced or paid for by local businesses just to get the huge influx of new visitors during weeks when new customers were limited.

What we all need to recognize is that the Watchtower is made up of several corporations. Few, if any, lose a dime and all have carryover income into the next year no matter what the expenses may have been. Even with all of the payouts, the WT may have to make to cover legal expenses and settlements for child abuse cases each year, those expenses barely make a dent in their bottom line. Then add on the profits from selling all those buildings in Brooklyn and New York City...

The reality is that the Watchtower should never have to plead for money. They have plenty and their cash flow is extensive and continuous. They have cash and investments scattered in family and small non-profits in the USA and other countries. They are like Scientology and the Latter Day Saints organizations - major cash cows that face no real tax liabilities with any consequence. And the side benefits include having control over the hearts and minds of thousands of mental slaves - slaves in hearts, minds, and bodies - to their fairy tale, made up, and clearly unsupportable "religious teachings." They are just another segment of the classic TV preachers who spend all their time begging for money and yet giving nothing back to the poor and confused they are supposed to be serving.

JV

24

whatever happened to rotation? wt study to April two.

by waton in

with all the emphasis on hierarchical succession in that wt, , what ever happened to mentioning of the refreshing, liberating "rotating of positions" period, the time of great increase?

.

Juan Viejo2

A comment on the subject of rotation of elders and "specialty servants" (those who conducted the WT meeting, Ministry School Servant):

[Note: You can tell the era I came from (1950s/1960s) because the descriptive title of "Servant" was replaced by "Elder" and "Overseer" in the late 1960s. Those changes alone forever damaged the feeling of equality among brothers within Kingdom Halls. If someone is assigned to "serve" the congregation, his "service" is seen as non-threatening and a positive gift of time and effort to the other members of the congregation.]

But if someone is seen as an "elder" or "overseer," then for the rank and file it becomes "boss/employee" --- "manager/subordinate" --- "owner/slave" relationship.

I remember how uncomfortable my male relative JWs felt having their descriptive titles changed. My father actually went to various friends and told them that he would always consider himself a "servant" in the congregation. "I don't make a very good boss. I want to be able to say to a JW friend, 'have a nice day' or 'good luck in field service' without it being interpreted as an order."

My then wife (1965-1970) - who continued to attend meetings after I stopped going - found it very hard to think of some of the brothers as "overseers." She also shared with me that their attitudes and personal approach to the non-assigned brothers and sisters were quite different.

Even though "ministerial servant" was a new position in the congregation and had not yet been fully defined, it was clear to her that some of those chosen for the "pre-elder" position were already acting like "princes" or some kind of "JW royalty." She left the JWs just before the1975 fiasco finally blew up and I think she was just tired of the false pride being shown by some men in the congregation who had titles - something she never saw when we were dating and were first married in the mid-60s.

It was the same with "Governing Body." Before that, we considered the President and Vice-President of the Watchtower Society as being special men with broader responsibilities. But unlike Russell and Rutherford before them (who were considered to be the "leaders" of the religion with hotlines to Jehovah's throne in heaven), Knorr and F. Franz and Hayden Covington, while admired, were not considered as being particularly "special" in a theocratic sense - at least not in the field. I know that those working in Bethel at the time had differing opinions about the "unique responsibilities" assigned to officers of the organization.

While a majority of readers of this forum will most likely have come on the JW scene well after the early 1980s "massacres" at Bethel and throughout the organization - and are unlikely to have recognized the changes in the "power grid" of the Watchtower, I can assure everyone that with that change in authority, position titles, and implementation of the Governing Body arrangement, everything changed forever. Some JWs recognized the changes and a few rebelled. Others (like they were when attending meetings) were not paying attention or simply did not care - or sleeping with their eyes open - except during prayers when they actually caught some shut-eye.

I saw the changes in my wife and among my family members when those new policies and naming arrangements were applied. That was also a reason for the huge exodus after the failure of 1975. A lot of JWs would have probably let the failed prophecy thing slide by, but the fact that "servants" were now overseers, mass purges were taking place throughout the organization, and every congregation saw more JWs leave or fade away.

Now the "Governing Body" is trying to slip out of the nooses they have placed around their own necks. They are saying that they are nothing special, that they have no special "telephone line" to heaven, that they are capable of making mistakes, and that they carry to responsibility for what the Watchtower organization does.

I remember my father and mother crying on the phone in 1966 when they learned that I had been disfellowshipped. They begged me to repent and "return to Jehovah." My father was so distraught that he could not speak more than a couple of sentences to me before turning over the phone to Mom. That was the beginning of the big move toward shunning. My parents hated the whole thing but reminded me that "the brothers in New York are directed by Jehovah" - leaving them no choice in the matter. My mother then told me that my father even gave up his position as an "overseer" in their congregation - because he could not in good conscience serve and enforce a policy that he disagreed with - but had to live under.

JV

18

The "Paradise" as promised by the Watchtower

by Saethydd in

i was thinking today about the descriptions of the future "paradise" presented by the watchtower, and i was struck by something about it.

most of us are aware that the watchtower promotes an interpretation of the apocalypse that would result in the immediate execution of 99.9% of the population with no hope for resurrection.

additionally, we have been told about the large group of people that are supposed to side with satan at the end of the thousand year reign of christ.

Juan Viejo2

One night a friend and I were discussing the possibility of surviving Armageddon and living forever. I asked him what he would want to do if he made it through.

"I'd go boating down the Colorado River in a canoe without a life jacket," he offered. "Then I'd want to go over Niagra Falls." After further suggestions that he might want to ski down Mt. Everest, swim across the Pacific Ocean without any life support equipment and wrestle a shark or an Orca, I gave up on him.

"Hey! If you know you can't die - or if you do you will be restored automatically - why wouldn't you do those things. Remember "no pain or tears"?

So you could go for broke and take any chance you wanted. If you died, you'd be re-resurrected as long as you followed all the JW rules.

Makes you stop and think for a minute. Just what would happen if you were killed in an accident or stretched your luck too far?

JV

18

The "Paradise" as promised by the Watchtower

by Saethydd in

i was thinking today about the descriptions of the future "paradise" presented by the watchtower, and i was struck by something about it.

most of us are aware that the watchtower promotes an interpretation of the apocalypse that would result in the immediate execution of 99.9% of the population with no hope for resurrection.

additionally, we have been told about the large group of people that are supposed to side with satan at the end of the thousand year reign of christ.

Juan Viejo2

This was a question that I posed to a couple of my "no matter what you say, and you may be right, I'll be a JW for life" relatives:

OK. So you survive Armageddon. What do you do for the first 50 years? Clean up the mess of Armageddon and bury or burn all the bodies of the wicked that are laying around and rotting. Sounds like fun to me.

Then what do you do? Build new cities and roads? Build yourself a mansion? Go play with the lions and tigers every day?

If you get your sexual prowess back, do you make new babies every year? Are they automatically righteous? What happens if there are no new babies and some of your friends are caught committing a sin by the angels and are toasted immediately on site? Will Jehovah stick another Tree of Knowledge somewhere in earth where you can choose to eat or not and take your chances? So what do you do after you've lived a thousand years? Ten thousand years? Are they going to have really great TV cable channels that just show people behaving perfectly and without any conflict in their lives? No bad guys to deal with? Will there be Jesus-Lands all over the world where you can go and ride a roller coaster knowing in advance that there is no danger involved - and if you are in an accident that your injuries will be immediately healed without blood transfusions? Will we have cars to drive and planes to fly? Or will we have to walk everywhere?

How will Jehovah communicate? Will we hear sounds of a booming voice from heaven? If not, how do we know that our "overseers" won't ask us to do something that will get us destroyed?

So then what? At 10,000 years? At 50,000 years? 100 thousand years? A gazillion years? What if no one survives who knows how to build bridges or airplanes or cruise ships? Will the weather be perfect every day, no matter where we live? Will Iceland become a garden of Eden? Will California and Japan be able to forget about earthquakes? Will sharks stop eating people who swim in the ocean? Will we really be able to pet lions and tigers? Will all the ecology change so that we have no bugs to eat our food or sting us? Then what happens to the balance of nature?

So many questions and not a single Watchtower or Awake! with the answers....

JV

15

From Jehovah's Witness to Hollywood actress

by RR in

jw
friends

from jehovah's witness to hollywood actressby tim townsendst.

louis post-dispatch09/11/2006.

juliana dever in "mangler reborn".

Juan Viejo2

Accidentally stumbled across this story while researching something else. The above mentioned Ms. Dever has done quite well for herself since this thread was posted.

See IMDB bio. She is now a regular on the relatively popular USA TV show, "Castle."

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1299015/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t15

Thumbs up for a young woman who escaped from the borg and made something of her life.

Hooda thunk it?

JV

9

Trump vows to repeal limits on churches

by StarTrekAngel in

i know the jws would not necessarily take advantage of this (or may be they would) but certainly, they will spin it off somehow.. https://www.yahoo.com/news/religious-looking-trump-protections-081209487--politics.html.

Juan Viejo2

They forget that letting churches politic like individuals can work both ways. Yes, there are a lot of super conservatives, Republican-leaning protestant churches that have managed to quietly promote certain candidates and political parties, but there are even more that would promote more liberal fair-play for all positions.

If they want to see black and predominately liberal churches hit the streets and claim that God supports a certain candidate - good luck. Think of the Jewish synagogues and Islamic temples that are very political, but must take it outside their temples and can not use church funds to promote a party or a candidate - suddenly released to be as active as they wish.

The not so secret that the facts are that churches have surreptitiously financed and promoted certain favored candidates for a long time. There is a reason that some whole areas go for a certain candidate only because he claims to be a Christian (and his opponent is likely one too), but in real life breaks every commandment and then some so hallowed by the ruling area church.

Money, religion, and politics have been very comfortable bedfellows for a long time. The difference now is that they are not even trying to hide the fact that clergymen break the law (both Democratic and Republican of all churches) every single chance they get..

Organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans for Separation of Church and State can never take a breath anymore. Everywhere from local city councils to state houses and Congress . are constantly falling back and ignoring their oaths of office, promoting (mostly Protestant) Christian ministers ahead of all other beliefs to lead prayers and other functions in purely political arenas.

JV

14

THE AGEING OF STILL-ACTIVE WITNESSES

by steve2 in

several years ago i started a thread on this forum in which i asserted i had not seen witnesses door-knocking in my village for at least two or so years.

years before that - in pre-trolley times - in going about my business (or pleasure), i'd catch sight of them on the streets as they shuffled in their groups from door-to-door: sometimes there'd be contingents of witnesses, including young couples, parents and their kids and middle-aged and older ones.

in other words, a good cross-section of ages and stages in life.. in fact, i can remember times when witnesses were so visible in numbers when going out in their car groups, you literally couldn't escape them.. then, in more recent years, i've seen very, very little...if not anything (and i count myself sensitive to noting whether jws are out and about).

Juan Viejo2

I've written about this before, but in my location (a very safe middle-class neighborhood) I used to see them about once every 3-5 months - you know in the spring and the fall. We would also get invitations to the Memorial and to conventions being held at the state fairgrounds located in our city. I haven't seen any at all at any time of the year in over 5 years. My home office looks out onto the street, so I can see everyone in the neighborhood walking their dogs, jogging, etc. But no JWs or their literature at my house for half a decade.

Something is definitely changing. I could drive by the largest Kingdom Hall in this area (I believe there are at least three in this town) and see cars parked in the lot and JWs milling around the main door. Recently I drove by the KH on both a Saturday and a Sunday in late afternoon and there were only just a couple of cars.

We are not the largest city in the state, but it would be in the top 3 or 4 for sure. We have an active downtown and quite a bit of foot traffic except in the winter. I've made a point of driving around the major intersections of the three major business areas in town - and have never seen a JW street preaching or manning a literature cart.

The only time I have actually encountered a literature cart was in another city in an adjacent state. There was a Saturday afternoon public sponsored "faire" of tents that were manned by various churches, activist groups, and sign carrying protestors. Two JWs were manning the cart (kind of a tall narrow thing with two verticle rows of Watchtowers and Awake! magazines. Zero enthusiasm even when I walked up and engaged them in conversation. Their attitude was more like "take whatever you want - you can even take duplicates for your friends - but we're just here to make sure no one steals the cart..."

Times have changed, that's for sure. I just wonder how they are managing to come up with hours to report - what are they actually doing?

JV

Juan Viejo2

Posts by Juan Viejo2

Lester Martin DuganObituary Condolences

Lester Martin Dugan
Obituary Condolences